So I realized over the weekend just why I hate web programming so much. It's because I tend to work on my webpage when it starts feeling outdated (which is about every year or two). When I make the web page, I try to use the latest technologies available to me which means I need to go out and learn new things. By doing so, I can have a modern looking, decent webpage. But web technologies change so damn much and are so fragile that every time I have to update my webpage to make it look like I'm not a caveman, I have to go teach myself 1-3 new programming languages just to do it!
For example:
- My first web page -- Had to learn HTML. No more BBS for me!
- My second web page -- Java/Java script was brand new, and you didn't have a good webpage unless it had at least one applet and a half-dozen JavaScript goodies on it.
- My third web page -- Java was out because of the load times, most JavaScript was out because it's an abomination. Image maps and roll-over effects ruled the web.
- My fourth web page -- Who uses image maps anymore? Now you need to learn PHP to get the job done. Oh yeah, and cgi-bins are all the rage for personal web pages now since you can finally afford hosting that allows them. Time to go learn Perl.
- My last web page -- Perl? Who uses that crap anymore? If your website isn't done with XHTML, conforms to DOM standards, uses CSS and PHP... it's pure crap!
My god! Every time I go to update my website I have to go learn new stuff. However, with good, old-fashioned programming, the languages don't change (What are we at now, PHP 4 and Perl 7?). When was the last time you heard of a new feature being added to C that broke old code? What about C++? You can safely learn a common, non-web programming language and not fear that they'll go and change the whole language around on you (or worse yet, drop your language for a new, more buzzword-compliant one). Which is why I will always be an applications/systems programmer and never a freaking web programmer. You can't pay me enough to do that!
::laughs:: I have no idea what you just said there...but I understand the part about having to learn new things when odl things go out of date.
web programming is t3h sux0rs
Amen to that Jake!
you know where to find me... I went through and made http://www.pantsu-pantsu.com 100% XHTML and CSS Valid!
And I visit it daily for a fix of pantsu. ;-)
RYN: I am trying...but it doesn't help that you have a few pictures of her from one of your vacations for me to stumble across...I'm not asking you to delete it or anything...but I know they are there.
I still use image maps. In fact, it was my finest moment when my image map started working. How sad is that?
Yeah, but you're cute -- you can get away with image maps! I, on the other hand, am not cute. So image maps hurt me more than help me.
Aww, you're cute! You're so cute it hurts my eyes somedays, in a good way. Hmm...just take that as a compliment and dont try to make sense of it.
yeah...Aaron is cute...and I'm...well...I'm just me
uhh uhh uhhhhhhhhhhhhhh
Web programming rules. You can run your programs from anywhere on teh intarw3b, can do all sorts of fancy-schmancy stuff like database interfaces and whatnot, and it's client-side platform-independent! The only downside is that you have to deal with stupid shit like Microsoft not displaying PNG files properly in IE. Yet another reason to go with better, more open products.
No, you see, it's not client-side platform independant. My site looks totally different depending on what software the user is running! The platform differences are even greater sometimes. It's stupid. There is a web standard out there but no damn browser follows it. What I want to see is a world where there are lots of different browsers but they only follow standard-compliant web pages. Simply don't display the ones that are broken. It causes better web pages to be made, and a uniform user experience!
I want to see a world without browsers and every application looks EXACTLY the way the author intended... which means, browsers will be dead.. and thin/smart clients will be in ... yes, I do know that browsers are thin clients, but not application specific thin clients.
Why else would web services be such a huge thing right now? Just for web applications through browsers? HAH..
Thin clients is an interesting idea, but as a developer, I want the ease of "write once, deploy everywhere" (which is why I use REALbasic.), and I want it to look as native as possible on the OS it's running on. But I don't want the entire page to be rearranged. For example, the client application can have whatever look and feel it wants in terms of the frame, buttons, etc. But I want my web page to render identical to every other client browser. So the browser can "feel" like a Windows/Linux/Mac/BeOS application, but my page renders the same regardless.
Wait a second, Aaron... "I want the ease of “write once, deploy everywhere†(which is why I use REALbasic.)" I think you use REALbasic because you are employed by RealSoftware ;)
Though I do agree that the 'write once, deploy everywhere' idea is great, it won't happen while Microsoft sits atop its throne of feces.
"write once, deploy everywhere" ... a delusion of grandure. It won't happen while Sun sits on top of a "supposedly-free" Java :P AND.. Microsoft sits on its thrown because it got there. You don't have to use Microsoft... and neither do your users. If they do.. thats YOUR problem as a developer to meet your requirments. In the open source world, where YOU create the tool (in the paradigm of websites / open source projects) you have a right to develop towards whatever platform you want. You aren't forced to watch Microsoft sit on its throne. Feces is a biproduct of the body, in which your body gets energy. Microsoft is to feces as Sun/*Nix is to vomit. One is meant to be productive and is helpful, the other is either caused by too much drinking or eating disorders. You can choose :P
Bah, that's Microsoft FUD talking there Jake. You don't need Java to write once and deploy anywhere. And franky, there is zero technical reason for the "delusion" -- it all boils down to a pissing contest between MS, Linux and Apple. Yes, free choice is awesome. But if the everyone sat down and came up with a standard and STUCK with it, then we'd be fine. But instead we're hosed with goofy issues like semi-POSIX compliance, different endianness and RISC vs CISC pissing contests. As for having to use MS, it IS forced on the average use. Ask your mom to reinstall her OS and watch the blank look on her face. Now try to go buy a computer without Windows on it. Both (while technically possible) are effectively impossible for Joe Blow because of the stranglehold MS has on the market.
Which is exactly why Microsoft deserves to be there and should not be held at fault. You answered your own question! But I agree, it IS a pissing contest, but thats what free enterprise is golden for! A company can create any product it wants and has a right to sell it in an open and free market. Should we hate a company because it's product is successful, industry leading, and widely spread usage? :)
One little two little three little endians.... :)
What sort of crack are you smoking? The complaint about semi-POSIX compliance was _aimed_ squarely in the MS corner (see rant about WinSock). I most certainly did not prove any point that MS is good. Hell, every time a standard comes out that people like, they go and fuck it up so they can control it(see Java, XML, HTML and basically any web-based solution ever written).
Just because you're an MS fanboi... sheesh! ;-)
And I agree with your comments on open markets. I guess that's why I think MS should be destroyed -- they force it into a non-open market by using vendor lockins.. no one else (unless they make their own hardware) really gets a shot at the pie because the big hog is at the feed trough.
But the feed trough was born on its own and has open range. To each their own! :)
Yup.. but I can also use Open Source tools and play with the "chickens with their heads cut off" crowd as well ;)
*feed trough = pig at the feed trough
NOTE: Jake is a .net Developer .. but can do just as much with java or c or ada or scheme or lisp or any other "more open" languages out there.. ALSO note that Jake does not *nix bash.. he is a lover of both sides, not a fighter
Ah, but there you are mistaken young one. MS was not born on its own. Instead it clawed out of the womb on the backs of others. For example: Xerox, BSD and Apple have all proven that MS used stolen code. It doesn't bother me that they stole it.. but they bastardized it in the process. Such as what they did with WinSock. It was a decision they made to lock developers into supporting a single platform -- theirs. All their decisions tend to revolve around lock-ins. I hate to be the one to burst your bubble, but I see the ball rolling down off the MS Hill and more into the other markets because MS has just been pissing off too many people. I won't happen overnight, but it'll happen.
NOTE: I am one of the biggest supporters of MS at our company, but that doesn't mean I like the company or agree with them. I just want to make sure every OS gets a fair shake in our little company. I happen to much like *nix... and I don't fight -- I debate. :-D
I concede
I concede
I concede