Eh, I had a whole big, long rant typed up which I was going to mark as private (due to strong language and stronger opinions). But after blowing off all my steam, I think a summary will suffice.
I am the UI evangelist at REAL Software for all platforms, not just Windows. While my personal preference is to avoid the Mac, I'm still a professional programmer. My goal is for the user experience to match the user's expectations on whatever platform they are running on. That means meeting the UI guidelines for that platform. It's a monumental task since the UI needs to span across three different platforms with some vastly different guidelines. However, I think I've done a pretty good job of juggling the various platform needs. Is the task complete? Certainly not -- there's room for improvements on all platforms, and there's always new UI being introduced (and guidelines change).
Claiming that I need to buy a Mac (I have two already, and that's more than enough) or that we need to hire someone with a better understanding of Apple's HIG is offensive to me. I spend more time than any other designer on ensuring the IDE's user interface is correct (or at least acceptable) for all platforms. I'm also damn proud of the job I've done. I've had more training in UI design than most, and probably know more about the interface guidelines for each platform than you'd suspect.
If you have interface issues for any platform, I urge you to report them (include screen shots if you can). If you have suggestions on how to improve the user experience, please feel free to discuss them. But when you find bugs, or when you think you can design something better, please don't be rude about it. Remember, there are people on the receiving end of your comments who take pride in their work.
And you should take pride in it: you've done a great job. I was pissed off for your sake when I read that comment on the list. And for Jon's sake, for that matter. Frankly, I'm glad RS has a strong Windows proponent in the ranks. While I choose to use a Mac, many of my customers don't, so I'm grateful to have access to such a great resource when it comes to Windows UI issues.
As for Linux platform stuff, well, I don't worry about that. Everybody knows that Linux is only used by hippies who won't spend money. ;)
Thanks Brad. :-) And we love our Linux friends, they're good people!
I do want to say that I didn't write this as a dig on the people who made disparaging comments on the list. I *know* they didn't make those comments in an attempt to be rude. I just needed to vent a bit and put the information out there. :-) I still like you guys (and will consume beers with you at REAL World, if you come).
I definitely agree RB has a generally good user interface. One thing is that most Mac OS X users hate groupboxes since they never seem to be used much, despite the fact that they are authorized and supported by the HIG. Personally, I think OS X's groupboxes were poorly designed by Apple--the rounded edges clash with the square windows.
And of course, keep up the good work--needless to say, I think you're doing a great job!
I was put out by the comment on the list as well. I've gotten tired of the attitude that some listers seem to have that believes RS doesn't give a crap about its users, or the quality of the product.
Anyone who reads the posts from RS employees should be able to see the commitment and admirable restraint that you guys show. I don't see how you keep from absolutely shredding some of the more vicious listers sometimes.
I'm glad I'm not subscribed to any of the lists. I probably would've torn this person a new one for you, Aaron. I feel that you guys do a wonderful job, and work extremely hard to sell such a great product(hrm...I should be on RS's payroll for all the positive publicity I give them, lol). I love RB, coming from VB where you have to go around your arse to get to your elbow for a lot of things, I'm relieved everytime I load up RB and build my own custom interface objects.
As far as the UI goes. I love it. Freedom, with a general direction. All of the posts of yours that I have read about the UI have been MORE than helpful. If it hadn't been for your OKCancelContainer, I'd still be winging my Mac and Linux apps using the Win32 guidelines. So, I for one, want to say thanks. You're a blessing to the RB community(and no, I'm not just brown-nosing).
I have to say, Apple users consist of the best computer lovers as well as the worst arse-holes. The computer lovers will accept and appreciate any great program (which I truly believe RB certainly is). On the other hand, the arse-holes expect 100% satisfaction with everything, and when they don't get it they'll express their rage against the machine! It just so happens, that there are sensitive humans that built 'the machine' who get upset!
Aaron, I completely sympathise with you... it's not nice to receive criticism on your hard work. I have to say though; people in the Mac world expect all their apps to look sensational. To succeed in Mac UI design, just sticking to the guidelines isn't enough. You have to break the rules to make a sensational app (as we know from Apple's past).
I think RB has fallen into the same trap as FireFox.. When running on a Mac, it doesn't look Windows-ish or Mac-ish.. it looks x-platform-ish! That 'look' is a utilitarian compromise made by the dev (you) to keep the most people happy. It's completely understandable to make the compromise, but some Mac users aren't willing to accept it. Yeah, in an ideal world I'd like the IDE to look like a Cocoa app put together by Apple, but I'd rather have better functionality. At the end of the day it's what RB can produce that is important to me. So long as I have the tools to create a good looking app, I don't mind.
Sorry for the diatribe!
@Aaron. Sorry about that quip.
@Charlie -- that's a good way of putting it. :-)
@Gerard -- no worries! I knew your intentions weren't bad with the comment (I realized it was a quip, that's why I quipped back on-list).
Aaron, Charlie's made some good points. I'm primarily a Mac user, although I started as a Windows programmer. I want my Mac programs to have a solid Mac interface, not a port of a Windows interface (the worst offenders are the 3-D graphics programs that my wife uses -- they actually didn't bother to replace the gray Windows icons and just embedded them in a Mac OS X program).
However, it is much more important to have correct function (both between platforms and within a platform) than a precisely correct appearance. REALbasic does not differ enough from a Mac interface to bother me because it functions correctly and I can get my work done. If minor differences in the interface made it function incorrectly, I might get upset.
I can understand how users of classic Mac environments like CodeWarrior might be taken aback by the simgle-window interface of REALbasic 2k, but: (1) CodeWarrior's dead -- deal with it, and (2) newer Mac development tools like XCode use single window interfaces. RS can't be expected to maintain a single-window IDE for one platform and a multi-window IDE for another. That would invite a maintenance nightmare and therefore slower development of the IDE.
Aaron, I am sorry my comment hurt your feelings. I surely had no intention of offending anyone, especially you and Jon, and it was not a personal attack on your work. I am a developer and I know firsthand that some comments do hurt. Let me just try to straighten things out, if possible:
- I was not referring to the single-window interface, I'm fine with that. It improved my productivity in many ways, and that's what I wrote on MacUpdate about 2006r2.
- What I meant is that, from my point of view, the Mac side has been suffering since the 2005 release, and some glitches in the interface of the IDE seem like the external layer where deeper problems surface. Just have a quick look at the bugs regarding bundles and plist files.
- I am sure you guys have all the necessary skills, but I also know that a day has only 24 hours, and UB were announced 11 months ago.
- People said I am worrying unnecessarily and I was arrogant, but I feel responsibilities towards my customers, people who make their living using our product and chose to trust us for their work. That's the kind of feeling that makes me answer support emails at 2am in the morning, work on holidays and, rarely, post that kind of alarmed rants on the list.
Again, sorry, and thanks for your commitment to RB.
@Andrea -- no worries, I know your intentions were good.
Don't let them get you - you're doing a good job. :D
Hi,
I am late to the conversation, and I missed the initial post, so I have no right to comment - therefore I could not resist.
First, no one is perfect, and I am sure if i nitpick enough I could find some issues in all three platforms. I am reminded of an old saying: "Democracy is the worst form of government, except for all the rest." I think the same could be said REALBasic. I have used many cross-platform API's and none even comes close to RB! This is the single biggest reason I use RB - I am a language bigot (No language compares to C++ - well excluding objective-C++).
I say again - REALBasic has the BEST cross platform UI I have ever used. If you want to work on a UI element, only the toolbar needs major work (feel free to contact me if you want more discuss it in more detail) - everything else is near perfect. Having used RB since version 3.5 I have watched it grow, if you find some small interface problem then report it - my experience is they fix it quickly. REAL has been among my best software experiences, yes I have had some problems, but they have addressed them all and made me feel like my thoughts and opinions mattered to them.
I want to say to all of you at Real Software - GOOD JOB!
I just discovered RB and think it's a great find. I have just finished writing a chat system for Windows using VB 2005. Many people expressed disappointment that it isn't available for non-Windows platforms. So I started by doing a Google search for "Linux Basic". Among others, RB popped up. So I downloaded the Linux version. So far, I'm impressed. I didn't think programming for Linux would be enjoyable at all (I detest the command line & linkers!) The only problem is trying to create a toolbar. So I scrapped that and modified the linux version of my program to use pushbuttons across the top of the form.
I guess i'm just too used to how to do things in VB, as i'm having trouble accomplishing simple things. I finally figured out how to create global variables (called properties in RB), and public subs & functions. I think I also figured out how to make UDT's (structures). In RB it's a class. The thing that eludes me is that in VB I made use of ArrayLists to hold objects. I have not found the same functionality in RB. Is it there?
Thanks for a great cross-platform product. I'm looking forward to using this to build Linux versions of all my Windows applications, assuming I have the ability to become bi-lingual :)
Welcome to RB Terry! You may also want to check out the forums (http://forums.realsoftware.com) when you have questions -- lots of people around to answer.
As for the ability to make array lists, you can either (1) use an array of objects directly, or (2) use a Dictionary
For Terry Olsen's toolbar issue - give this a try http://www.logicalvue.com/products/realbasic/ultratoolbar/ultratoolbar.html - I use it and am very happy with it.