Well I'll be dipped!

I was totally disappointed with the commercials, though they did land me $33 in winnings for commercial betting.

But yeah, forums are more controllable and configurable than mailing lists as well. Easier to moderate.

jake

I love the forums (count my posts - over 1000) and I don't like the mailing-lists much, but shutting down the popular lists is a lousy decision because it will alienate so many core users.

All you have to do is look at the traffic on the NUG and who's already said they don't liek the forums, why, and who's even said they won't use them or can't use them.

Interesting decision and it has riled a lot of long time users.

I doubt that the forum will ever match the NUG in terms of knowledge. I doubt that many core users will join the forum.
It will be a loss. :-(

It's been a while since I was on the NUG and Betas lists, but I personally like mailing lists because it's easier for me to scan the topics and sort through the influx of information. Then again, I tend to hate web-based anything because it tends to be much more inflexible then a dedicated program.

I would love to see forum software that let users scan through the new posts by date posted instead of by thread. It should also let users do better searching (think Apple Mail/Spotlight-style). It doesn't need to be instantaneous, but it should be smart like Spotlight.

@Nils -- The forums have more users than the NUG (and have for a while now)... I don't see where you would get the idea that there's less knowledge there. Heck, there are more RS employees on the forums than there are on the mailing lists...

@Mike Benonis -- It sounds like you really want an RSS feed for the forums? If so, you'll be happy to know that the forums have that feature now.

If the forums were already easier and better to use then the entire group using the mailing list would have moved there already.

Most I've seen posting about not liking the forums on the maling list have tried them and simply do not like them for a wide variety of reasons.

I'm hoping that with the switch to the forums, people will be lest apt to post "Me too!" to a particular message. It's too easy to do with email clients, and those emails not only have no worth whatsoever, but they tend to detract from intelligent discussions.

-Adam

@Norman -- funny... the feeling I got was that most people already are on the forums. ;-) In any event, I'm certain there are going to be detractors. People seem to abhor change. But overall, I'm delighted because I've found the forums to be an infinitely more civilized place with better discussions. The barrage I've heard about on the NUG only reinforces that fact in my mind.

Oh, and an interesting note -- I heard about the decision at the same time NUGers did. There was internal talk about it, but I never heard about an actual decision until this morning. So it's not like this was something I was championing and am smugly gloating over. I'm smugly gloating without being a champion. :-P

What about the beta list ? Will that one also be on the forums ?

"The forums have more users than the NUG (and have for a while now)..."

Yes, I signed up too for a while but I'm not using them. So the forum has more users what ever this means.

"I don't see where you would get the idea that there's less knowledge there. Heck, there are more RS employees on the forums than there are on the mailing lists..."

Because I was looking for information on the forum but found it instead searching my list archive... So there is more knowledge in the NUG.
And the help I got before the forum existed came from people like Charles Yeomans et al. and not from RS employees (one exception: Joe Strout) but both will not join the forum so there will be a loss.

Why force a customer to something he is not comfortable with?

While I have never used mail lists, the main advantage I see would be that you could view the information off line. Too bad the information on the forums is so huge that it would be next to impossible to download.

@Trausti -- I have no idea. I think it'd be a good idea.

@Anon -- the same thing could be said of the mailing lists too. Lurkers don't much count. I'm talking about active posts. As for charles not coming to the forums, I think you're speaking out of turn. He's posted in the forums several times. I'm sorry that your *searches* didn't turn up any help. But did you try *asking*?

@Aaron - civilized or not I find them less useful except for the one's you are in since that's the only place I can get YOU to reply to a question.

More registered users is simply a bean count.
I'm registered and post rarely so I count as one of the users although I don't use them.

When you look at total posts the forums seem to cater to to REAL (since Aaron and Mike have the most posts)

I'm just not sure whose needs the move to close the mailing lists adresses. It's not the users of the mailing list, and the people who use the forums seem happy enough with them.
I really do not understand the rationale at all since all it's done so far is alienate the people who use the mailing lists.

So much so there's already an alternate one started up

@Norm -- An answer is an answer... the forums have more answers than the NUG does from what I've been able to tell (a LOT more from what it seems). If another list has started up somewhere else, then great. But honestly, I think that's rather silly -- who would go to there when the majority goes to the forums?

@Aaron: I don't see any option to subscribe to an RSS feed on the forums. Where is it hiding?

@Mike -- http://forums.realsoftware.com/viewtopic.php?t=11097

People what want long time users that don't like the forums to answer. Folks like Joe Strout, Charles, Lars and any one of a number of long time users

The only forum I find more answers to the questions I have is the Windows one because you watch that one.

The rest of the questions I have that I need answers to the other experienced users answer and that's the mailing list.

I know you prefer the forums for your own reasons.
I don't.

I'm not sure what having two means of accessing knowledge around RB is such a bad thing (since the news group is pretty screwed)

There are lots of posts in the forums with no replies (never mind "answers") So there are many items going unanswered in the forums. Having a mailing list is just another means to access that community knowledge and this decision seems to have garned an almost unanimous "bad decision" from every user of the mailing lists.

I dont think I've ever seen that kind of consistent response to anything REAL has done in 10 years

I'm with Aaron on this issue. So many people are getting their panties in a bunch over what amounts to little more than a change of medium.

Though if you want to be picky, the new medium (viz., the forums) has more and better features -- seacrching, RSS feeds, and so on.

I'm sure anyone can come up with an example of when they asked something that went unanswered on the forums, but I've had the same issue happen on the mailing list. Let's not make this a holy war -- the mailing list is not God's Gift to RB developers. It's one of several methods of dissemination of information; it just so happens that it's no longer suitable for the RB community as seen from RS' perspective.

Don't like it? Then either start your own list or quit complaining.

-Adam

I wonder if there will be some sort of downloadable list archive.

I'm with Aaron on this issue. So many people are getting their panties in a bunch over what amounts to little more than a change of medium.

Though if you want to be picky, the new medium (viz., the forums) has more and better features -- seacrching, RSS feeds, and so on.

I'm sure anyone can come up with an example of when they asked something that went unanswered on the forums, but I've had the same issue happen on the mailing list. Let's not make this a holy war -- the mailing list is not God's Gift to RB developers. It's one of several methods of dissemination of information; it just so happens that it's no longer suitable for the RB community as seen from RS' perspective.

Don't like it? Then either start your own list or quit complaining.

-Adam

@Adam
New lists are already started

The forums are not suitable for a lot of people for a lot of reasons.

Have you tried the forums using a dial up ?
They are unusable at that speed. I dont have to resoort to it often but when I do I can email but there's NO way the forums work.

They can't be used offline where email can.
They can't be used at all from some work sites and so there are a number of users that will be cut off completely.
They're not nearly as searchable as my mail is thanks to Spotlight.

And, since there are other lists that can be used both as a web based forum or mailing list I fail to understand why the forums could not be made to act that way with a suitable piece of software.

I'm sure a lot of people still sitting in the mailing list would use the forums if it had the kinds of things that keep them preferring the mailing lists.

Your response seems to be "We dont care. Get used to it"

That's just not very customer focused is it ?

@Anon:
I don't agree 100% with your reasoning. While the email list CAN be used offline (with POP3 email), it can't ALWAYS be used offline (webmai, IMAP email). (And as an additional argument, if dial-up is a big factor in not liking forums, then you probably shouldn't be using POP3 email.)

Further, just because *some* employers block access to forums doesn't mean their use is bad. My previous employer didn't let us use non-work email on the job. As a workaround to either problem, I can SSH into an outside server and use email or web browsing. Regardless, I think it should not be at all RS' concern whether your employer lets you browse forums online. That's not their problem.

I've not used forums with both web and email copacities, but that would certainly be a reasonable function to request.

By the way, my response is not a "We don't care," message since I am in no way affiliated with RS. However, I think it's their prerogative to do what they wish and how they wish. The forums and mailing list are, IMO, privileges, and the harsh response from developers seems to me pretty unwarranted. RS is graciously providing this service, and a lot of people have come down awfully hard on them for changing the venue.

Wow. This is very interesting. Since I peruse the forum and the NUG equally, it's not that big of a deal to me. I prefer a mailing list for one simple reason: When a message has good tidbits in it, I mark it as flagged and leave it in my inbox for future reference. That will probably be the only true downside of going forum-only.

If the two options could be merged, that would solve the issues. Currenly, people who prefer forums are on the forums and those who perfer mailing lists use them.

The downside of the NUG is currently showing: My mailbox is being inundated with people complaining about the decision.

Adam: Me too!

@Adam
I have no idea why the last post I made came in as anon.

A customer focused response might have been to say "We notice you use the mailing list still. What could we do to make it so you'd use the forums instead ?"
They already have all subscribers emails so it's trivial to send such a message to the mailing list users.
Then get rid of the pain that these people have in using the forums and the reaction would probably be quite different.

Instead it's "oh by the by we're shutting this down"

There are alwys different ways to handle such things. You can make it easy for people to adopt the means you'd like them to use by taking the reasons people do not like the forums and try to mitigate them. And there's a way that gets you a response like the one they have.

The reaction REAL has received is the result of how they decided to handle the move.

As for "people coming down on them" lets just say that I'd bet that IF REAL had approached this by improving the forums to alleviate peoples dislikes and THEN shut the mailing list down there would not be the hue and cry there is.

But that style of dealing with customers is not typical of REAL so they get the kinds of shit storms they do.

FYI - I had to go back to a 28.8 modem and POP mail worked just fine. Plenty fast to download mail and read it offline. A flakey broadband connection makes the forums awful to browse.

I NEVER use IMAP, webmail, etc precisely becuase I do go offline frequently and then I cannot read emails I might need to reply to. I can forumlate a reply offline and then send it later.

As for employers blocking access I run into that frequently.
Most are absolutely paranoid about any access to sites no approved by IT. But my email still works there. Yes I can ssh out to another box and get around things that way. It's a pain to have to do so when there is already an avenue that works.

@Christian -- the trick that I use is to bookmark the forum postings I find most useful and keep those bookmarks in a separate folder under my favorites list.

@Norman -- last I heard, around 95% of our customers use broadband... claiming "but it's slower for dial-up" isn't a terribly strong argument.

@Aaron
It really is. Try it sometime just for fun.
I did just a couple weeks ago and had no problem keeping up with the emails. Could not use the forums.
Maybe a lot of people don't use modems all the time.
But when, or if, you do you'll hate the forums.

I know there are some mailing list members who are on dial up and this will impact them.

And it's only 1 point and not really the cornerstone of what I don't like about the forums.

The whole announcement seems to have been handled in a way to garner the most ill feelings possible.
It seems to have succeeded emminently well

About the RSS feeds in the forum...

It seems they only include the last 15 postings. Would you consider expanding that number?

In the General Forum, I believe that's only reflecting the last few hours of postings.

Russ

@Russ -- you should post that in the forums under the topic about the RSS feed, that way Mike sees it too. It think it's a good idea.

@Norm -- you managed to miss the point entirely. Less than 5% of our customer base uses modems. Arguing that we should spend more money on the 5% than on the 95% isn't sensible (IMHO).

Seriously though... I'm not going to suddenly go "oh man, I should champion bringing back this resource." It wasted my time when I was on the NUG and was a constant drain on my energy. I have no such problems with the forums. So from a purely personal perspective, I have no reason to ever want to see the mailing lists come back. Yes, I want customers to be happy. So come to the forums and get your questions answered. Whether you *enjoy* the medium or not is moot. If you have questions, you'll do whatever you need to do to get them answered.

@aaron
You've missed the point

I dont really care about the modems. Just when I did try it sucked even worse

The forums as a medium for ME suck.
They are less amenable to finding already existing answers than the emails I already have. They simply are not as easily searchable nor does the search have as much capabilit y as what I have in spotlight.

They are slower to access on ALL kinds of connections becuase it's a web page so there is turn around and reload every time I click something. They are a chore to move about.

And the people who frequent them (excepting you) generally are not the ones that can and do answer my questions.

As for "doing whatever it takes to get them answered" I already do that. I ask Windows questions on the forums becuase that's the only venue you haunt and I ask almost everything else in the mailing lists.

I wuld not expect you to petition anyone to revive the mailing lists. I know how you feel about them and I can understand. but there is a group that treasures them for various reasons and all this announcement has done is alienate and piss them off to varying extents.

It's not the announcement that is really the issue. It's how it was handled.

"I wuld not expect you to petition anyone to revive the mailing lists. I know how you feel about them and I can understand. but there is a group that treasures them for various reasons and all this announcement has done is alienate and piss them off to varying extents.

It's not the announcement that is really the issue. It's how it was handled."

There's really no good way to tell people news they won't like, especially given that the vocal minority seems to abjectly abhor any type of change. Sometimes "straight" is the best way. I don't see any problem with the way the announcement was made as it's the truth. The lists are closing on Monday. If you want an official place to ask questions and get help from REAL Software employees, the forums are it.

Aaron, your perspective often baffles me!!!

@Joe Huber -- what's so confusing about it?

I'm very disapointed with this decision and IMHO that was a very very very BAD decision!

I'm registered at the RS forums and I use it mainly for Windows related problems because you are there and you are a great help, and I sometimes answer questions if have the time for that.

The NUG list is a very valuable resource for me and for many RS CUSTOMERS. If it didn't exist I really don't know if I were using RB - it helped me a lot when I started (2004) and it keeps me helping EVERY SINGLE DAY. I have just a section on my Outlook with hundreds of messages with tips, solutions, workarounds, bugs and so on, categorized by control and classes, coding tips, announcements, databases etc that I often use - something that I can't have with a Forum!

If many RS customers prefer to use the NUG list, let them use it.

Carlos

It would be nice if the individual forums were accessable via RSS readers.

@Cordell -- they are... (I posted a link earlier in this thread to the information on the forums).

I'm also disappointed with this decision. I receive the mail automatically and can quickly read entries to find tips or facts I don't already know. I like being able to store the mailing list entries in a SQL database and being able to search them by topic later.

In the forum, I have to wade through screen after screen to follow different threads. It's often slow, even on my cable modem.

I suppose if the RSS is expanded to include a day or two's entries, it might be usable.

Mike has explained that users can configure the forum rss links so that the feed includes whatever (up to 50) number of postings the user wishes.

Also, you can tell the link to only send you new topics and not every response within each topic.

Speaking just for myself, this is nearly perfect.

Details on how to configure the link are in the thread:

http://forums.realsoftware.com/viewtopic.php?p=60432

LOL. Once again, RS promotes view of the REAL* community as a product support channel, not a community of customers.

..continue with the beratements that the testing volunteers don't test, the beta/plug-in developers can't talk potential features, nothing gets developer attention unless it's in feedback report, and other "OT" police work.

@Aaron
Undip.
Geoff today announced this decision has been reversed.

There are a lot of people on both the forums & the mailing lists that would undoubtedly agree with the motives to close the lists or make it possible to use either mechanism to access the entire REALbasic user community.

It will be interesting to see what can be done to make this happen.

http://www.thecrowroost.com/RECIPES.htm

Ouch!